Curse

A Leprechaun · Dec 20, 2006, 02:40 PM // 14:40

But i dont see enraging charge in your calculations, and you should need to do any "building adrenaline".

~A Leprechaun~

Silk Weaver · Dec 20, 2006, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Enraging Charge has a 20 second recharge, right?

LightningHell · Dec 20, 2006, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Exactly. Enraging Charge would do nearly nothing to the above statistics, except give both yes/no RotN a boost at 0/20/40 seconds. It might tilt slightly towards RotN's favor, but nothing major.

Buce · Dec 20, 2006, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Kudos to LightningHell to make a thorough simulation of the adrenaline builds up. But to me, the advantage of RotN to other adrenaline surging skills is the fact that it's unconditional. Now in both pve & pvp, enemies are using blocks, evades, blinding and hexes for warrior to miss their attack. When you miss, you don't get adrenaline other than from the damage you receive.

Thom Bangalter · Dec 20, 2006, 09:08 PM // 21:08

First, thanks Lightning for putting in numbers what I was trying to say all along. I feel the information, but lightning thinks it.

The problem with RoTN is that, on a hammer bar, as lightning pointed out, you're passing up some really good elites to pull it off. RoTN does combo nicely with skills that cause you to lose all adrenaline, because you effectively dump anything you had built up in other skills when you use them. Hammer bash comes to mind, but it's obscenely low adrenaline cost makes a skill like enraging charge or stape IAS skills more appealling. The only place I could legitimately see the usefulness of RoTN is to get off a quick final thrust on a target, since it's adrenaline cost is so high, and you've already dumped your previous adrenaline using it.

So something like this: build up sever/gash/more attacks/final; enraging/rotn/gash final. Theoretically you could get two final thrusts off in quick succession of each other. I don't think it would be that effective in pve, but in pvp getting off quick final thrusts in succession is a great thing. I'd have to go test this to be sure, but it's fun to use final thrust if nothing else (partially due to the skill's name).

Nexus Icon · Dec 20, 2006, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Bit of a change from "The elite is bad. End of story", isn't it Thom?

Thom Bangalter · Dec 20, 2006, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

If I'm going to try to be semi-constructive, then get frustrated and start flaming, I will indeed go test the build. And Rage of the Ntoulke (whatever the spelling is) is pretty terrible. It's better than primal rage though, but is slightly worse than battle rage.

It is bad. It's margins better than primal rage but a step below battle rage and you're sacrificing an elite slot for it on a hammer warrior, of all things.

I never said it was unplayable, but it is terrible. No skill is unplayable.

Dazzen · Dec 20, 2006, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

The 5s recharge is significant because the lack of adrenaline building during that period, as you probably well know. While the normal Warrior might not be able to build enough adrenaline for the attacks in 5 seconds, he might have it readily after, something like 2-3 seconds after.

--- insert interesting figures here (this is not sarcastic) ---

I've been running some calculations as well and i have different figures on a precise case, wich is related to the build posted by the OP.

To stick to your reasearches, i've also assumed hammer swings of 1.17 (under 33% IAS), and kept the following skillsets :

Standard skillset
- Mighty blow (7 adren)
- Yeti smash (7 adren)
- Hammer bash (6 adren, loose all when used)
- Mokele smash (gain 2 adren on hit)

Rage skillset (see OP build)
- Mighty blow (7 adren)
- Yeti smash (7 adren)
- Hammer bash (6 adren, loose all when used)
- Combo (Mokele smash + enraged charged = +7 adren @ 14 str)
- Rage of the Ntouka

I've tried to compile the datas in a quite readeable form, but it's farm from being very clear at first sight

It's a comparison beetween the above skillsets (timeframe of 60 seconds) but the main unit is 'hammer swings' because it is easier to use than seconds.

It's assumed that each hammer swing hits, every 1.17 seconds.

Based on this chart (that may have some flaws, it's just to get a global idea), i've came up with these conclusions :

1°) The ROTN + Adren combo allows to spam 10 attacks in a row (without a single normal attack in beetween) : Mighty Blow->Yeti Smash->Hammer Bash->Mokele->Mighty Blow->Yeti Smash->Hammer Bash->Mighty Blow->Yeti Smash->Hammer Bash.
This means 4 enhanced damaged strikes (Mighty blow and Mokele), 3 AoE damage strikes (Yeti) and 3 KD (Hammer Bash).
Taking into account that a warrior natural armor penetration takes effect on attack skill useage, this adds up to the great amount of damage.

2°) While there is a 'adrenaline draught' period (beetween swings 11 and 19 for example), you can fairly well restart the attack chain explained in point 1 after this period.

3°) I've evaluated the number of 'attack skills' used in the normal build to 19 (an extra attack for the charged adren skills at the 60s mark).
For the Ntouka build, this sums up to 30, giving 11 more attack skills used.

I hope this explains the synergy and adrenaline-tweak behind the Ntouka hammer build, and why it is not as bad as everyone wants to believe.

Some final conclusions :
- I would hardly use rage of the ntouka in another build, for me it is a very situational elite.
- Hammer has better elites to throw in a general skillbar.
- Seems i don't have a life either

Thom Bangalter · Dec 20, 2006, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dazzen

- Hammer has better elites to throw in a general skillbar.

Exactly. I don't care how many extra attacks it does, it ties up your elite.

LightningHell · Dec 21, 2006, 05:07 AM // 05:07

I don't know, but from first sight you're forgetting that all adrenaline skills deduct a strike of adrenaline from each other adrenaline skill when used, and all attacks give 1.25 strikes of adrenaline.

I have to get off now, so I'll leave it at that for the moment...

BSSuperman · Dec 21, 2006, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Hello Mr Leprechaun

Oki Ive read the thread and gave up as soon as the dragon slash posts started coming out so I hope your thread hasnt been too hijacked.

Your build seems ok in theory, I only have a couple of 'suggestions' or "thoughts" about it.

I dont think that your only interrupt/knockdown should be heavy blow, It makes no sense to lose all your adrenaline in an adrenaline build..

However I havent gotten thru to NF yet due to baby being born (dam u RL

) so I dont have operational knowledge of how RotN (Rotten?? LOL) works other than looking at the wiki. Your build is gonna be severly hampered by blind (which warrior isnt (sigh)) and adrenaline denying skills and if your blinded and degen'd then you is a ded man.

Its good to see you trying out the new skills tho.

Ill just have to stick with Devestating Hammer Belly Smash Auspicious blow combo with Tiger Stance for the time being. Good ol' classics....

Dazzen · Dec 21, 2006, 03:53 PM // 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

I don't know, but from first sight you're forgetting that all adrenaline skills deduct a strike of adrenaline from each other adrenaline skill when used, and all attacks give 1.25 strikes of adrenaline.

I have to get off now, so I'll leave it at that for the moment...

Yeah, i've taken into account the fact that you loose one adrenaline when you use a skill, but also at the same time gain one from hitting (thus resulting in a -1 +1 = 0 so).

I didn't knew about the 1.25 adren thought. Is that for when you hit with an attack skill ?

jesh · Dec 23, 2006, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

It is bad. It's margins better than primal rage but a step below battle rage and you're sacrificing an elite slot for it on a hammer warrior, of all things.

I never said it was unplayable, but it is terrible. No skill is unplayable.

What about Archer's Signet?

Thom Bangalter · Dec 23, 2006, 03:52 AM // 03:52

archer's signet+concussion shot, obviously. But...that's the exception that proves the rule.

LightningHell · Dec 23, 2006, 04:06 AM // 04:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dazzen

Yeah, i've taken into account the fact that you loose one adrenaline when you use a skill, but also at the same time gain one from hitting (thus resulting in a -1 +1 = 0 so).

I didn't knew about the 1.25 adren thought. Is that for when you hit with an attack skill ?

Every attack gives 25 "points" of adrenaline. Every strike of adrenaline is 20 "points" of adrenaline.

Thom Bangalter · Dec 23, 2006, 05:32 AM // 05:32

Learn how adrenaline works:
http://www.team-iq.net/forums/showthread.php?tid=45

Brought to you be none other than Ensign.

LightningHell · Dec 23, 2006, 08:09 AM // 08:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

Learn how adrenaline works:
http://www.team-iq.net/forums/showthread.php?tid=45

Brought to you be none other than Ensign.

I was referencing that while doing the calculations...I'm pretty sure it's accurate.

Thom Bangalter · Dec 23, 2006, 08:14 AM // 08:14

I could tell, which is how I knew you were right, and I know it's accurate, because it's by Ensign.

Post was, of course, for those getting things mixed up.

Dazzen · Dec 23, 2006, 11:13 AM // 11:13

Erm, so if each attacks nets 25 adren points, and each strike of adren is 20 adren points, then there's a ratio of 1.25 adrenaline strike gained from each hit as you stated.

so 7 adrenaline skills should charge in (7/1.25) hits = 5.6 hits. Obvisouly 6 hits then as it must be a round number.
Also 6 adrenaline skills should charge in (6/1.25) = 4.8 => 5 hits.

Then i've run a test on the isle of the nameless (please take the time to run it also before trying to counter this argument), with two skills equipped (mighty blow=7 adren, and hammer bash=6 adren).

After 5 hits, hammer bash wasn't charge
After 6 hits, hammer bash was charged but not mighty blow
After 7 hits, both were charged.

So the 1.25 adren strike per hit doesn't make sense.

Also, if you take a 'one adrenaline strike gained per successful hit' context wich i assumed, you would see that the following also occurs in game (again tested on the isle of the namesless) :

Bring two 7 adrenaline skills (mighty and yeti)

- 7 hits to charge mighty and yeti
- using mighty blow on a target, you loose one strike (ie = 6 strikes left) from yeti. But at the same time you're gaining one strike from the hit of mighty blow, thus resulting in the skill being back at 7 adrenaline strikes (7 - 1 + 1).

I think you should try to use the following figure to match in game mechanics with calculations :

one hit = 25 adrenaline points
one strike of adrenaline = 25 adrenaline points
hit/adrenaline strike ratio = 1

This is accurate (and tested) ingame, and does not conflict with charles's guide.

Thom Bangalter · Dec 23, 2006, 11:36 AM // 11:36

no...Ensign is always right.